wrong. If enough people are not persuaded to vote for your candidate and instead choose to sit this election out their decision will most definitely be relevant. Their decision will have an impact on the election.
Your failure to understand that says more about you than it does about them.
...not the words as you think you'd like them to be written.
But it's a little bit hypocritical. You argue that those who don't choose your candidate and spend time arguing why your candidate shouldn't be the nominee and why they won't vote is being politically irrelevant. If it's to you, personally, then that's fine. They are not, however, politically irrelevant in the larger sense of politics, and they are very relevant in the sense that they may also convince others, regardless of whether or not you wish to listen to it.
I just think 'political irrelevancy' is a poor choice of words.
...on a site dedicated to electing Democrats that you WILL NOT VOTE for a certain Democratic candidate you become irrelevant to the discussion. You have no more say going forward, especially if and when that candidate becomes the nominee.
What's so hard about that?
You can say that if you want, but it's just not true. Plenty of people here don't support Obama and are saying they won't vote for him. They have their right to have whatever say that want, including that one.
It's just hypocritical: you say that you don't like people who say 'my way or the highway' yet that is exactly what you are saying to these people: you're irrelevant if you don't support X. You're bashing the very thing you are espousing.
Exactly. It's the American way!
The diarist is right. People who feel the need to tell us in May that they will never ever ever ever, in a million years vote for Obama are irrelevant. They are acting out their anger over the fact that their preferred candidate has lost. That is childish. Adults, on the other hand, do what is right for the group instead of acting out their anger.
How are they irrelevant? You don't like the decision they made, that's fine, but they're definitely not irrelevant. They will vote as they vote and have as much power as you do -- one vote. They may or may not be acting out of anger, which is their right.
...as is their ability to effect the discussion going forward... which is what I wrote.
Wrong again. Real concerns/reasons are being expressed and perhaps if you quit telling people they are irrelevant you would be more revelant.
People who are concerned don't write off a candidate six months before the election. People who already have their minds made up do such things.
minds can be changed. So insulting them instead of engaging them seems to me to be counter-productive.
There are many ways to help a person change his mind. Calling people out on their bullshit is the most effective way that I have found. If you think investing in someone's emotional rantings is an effective tactic then more power to you.
Bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.
And I don't think discussing someone's "emotional rantings" is much of an investment. Some people get more exercised than others. Doesn't mean they should be denigrated and dismissed.
Sadly, that is a common misconception. Bullshit is pretty easy to detect. Especially if you are well versed in the subject matter. Anytime a self described Democrat claims an Obama Presidency will do more harm to our country than a McCain Presidency that is a clear and unambiguous case of bullshit.
to continue this discussion but I needed to leave the house 10 minutes ago.
But just a quick thought...perhaps the reasoning is that McCain seems to be one of the more reasonable Republicans (oxymoron anyone). A lot of people seem to be unsure of Obama's positions on issues that are important to them and unimpressed with his character.
And there is way too much anger floating around. People on all sides need to calm down so these problems can be hashed out.
I think it's worth it. I kinda like that unity thing Obama talks about.
Now that is a convincing argument. :)
What exactly are you unsure of Obama about but are sure about McCain. You can be sure thousand more US soldiers will be dead in a McCain presidency. You can be sure the number of Americans without healthcare will not go down. You can be sure Roe V Wade will be overturned once Stevens is gone. Hundreds more conservative justices appointed to various levels of federal court who will have influence for decades. You can count on more tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. If this is what your looking for in the next 4 years then by all means vote for McCain, donate to McCain and campaign for McCain. For a democrat to have this irrational hate for Obama, who's positions are 95% similar to Clintons, and to then support McCain who is a 180 from Hillary is some mind boggling rationality.
self employeed is one can cancel meetings at will. Which I did so I will respond.
What exactly are you unsure of Obama about but are sure about McCain.
It seems you are assuming that my comments were referring to my positions. They were not. Quite honestly, I wasn't in favor of either Clinton or Obama so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But my position does afford me the ability to see both sides. Which is why I advocate discussion and not derision.
...announcing that you will never vote for a certain candidate on a partisan website are two totally different things.
They are irrelevant because they aren't acting rationally. Any Democrat who thinks Obama is going to cause more damage to our county than McCain is taking a break from adulthood and wallowing in his/her anger over Hillary's loss.
Well, then we approach politics from two separate angles. You seem to place party label and party politics above all. I tend to think that it is much more complex. I certainly don't agree with everything the Democratic party stands for. As a whole however I have more in common with the Democratic platform than the Republican party.
So if someone doesn't toe the line, they are acting irrationally? Maybe from a party standpoint, but certainly not from an individual standpoint. Politics is a lot more complex than party.
And there's plenty of Democrats that may simply think McCain would be a better president over Obama. You may not agree with it and you may not like it, but that's the simple fact. Their voice is just as valid as yours.
So if someone doesn't toe the line, they are acting irrationally?
No. Swearing off a Democratic candidate six months before the election is not acting rationally. That is a far cry from not toeing the line on farm subsidies or nuclear power. You don't see the distinction?
Not on a Democratic policital blog. We aren't having this conversation in a vacuum. We are having it on a partisan Democratic website. Anyone who comes here to proclaim his intent to vote for a Republican is either being a troll or is acting out their anger. I don't consider such behavior to be valid.
Well, then I can't really argue or agree with you. You seem to be implying that to be a participant on this website one must in effect sign a waiver proclaiming oneself to be voting Obama in the fall. You think this is valid, I think politics is much more complex than this.
You're absolutely right, within the Democratic party, that's probably valid. In the real world, and in the real world where people vote, that's definitely not valid.
No loyalty oath needed.
If there are Democrats out there who aren't 100% comfortable with Obama then I ask them to please bring up their concerns. Please write diaries and/or comments addressing the issues you have with Obama. There are many Obama supporters here and elsewhere who would be happy to address those concerns. If after you have had your concerns addressed you still don't want to vote for Obama then I ask that you keep an open mind and postpone your decision until sometime in the fall. We have a long time before the election and many things can happen.
The actions this diary addressed were the diaries and comments of those who are vowing to never vote for Obama six months before the election. The people who write diaries or comments such as this either have their minds made up already or they are throwing a temper tantrum. I have zero patience for such people. If these people want me to empathize with their feelings/concerns/problems then they need to address their issues like adults not children.
I think this is absolutely fair enough. I'll be writing one of these diaries soon. Not as an attack, but as a genuine inquiry into some -- what I perceive to be -- weaknesses.
...and again if you'll read what I wrote above its about political irrelevance on this and other Democratic websites. There is no loyalty oath nor are you being told to vote for Barack Obama, but when people here make statements that they won't under any circumstances vote for the Democratic nominee for President they have, in essence, staked out an untenable position that makes them... essentially... irrelevant. I bring it up because the REASON to take that position is only to try and scare everyone else into ABANDONING that candidate, which is blackmail.
"And there's plenty of Democrats that may simply think McCain would be a better president over Obama. You may not agree with it and you may not like it, but that's the simple fact. Their voice is just as valid as yours."
This may be true in some cases. But in the case of a Hillary supporter saying that she would vote for McCain, (or sit out the elections). With their major differences in every important issue: War, Ecomony, reproductive rights, etc, and how close she is to Obama on those same issues, to claim that Obama is worse than McCain defies logic, and can be catagorized under the heading of "sour grapes". With their candidate gone they are literally saying to hell with the issues I feel are important, it has to be my candidate or nobody else
So what do you expect?
Do you think I'm suddenly going to "come to my senses"?
Have you experienced a lot of people being swayed by the "vote for my candidate OR ELSE" method?
That's not what he's saying.
He's saying, and I agree, that there's no point in talking to you if you're declaring in May that you'll not vote for Obama in November, no matter what he does.
You are making yourself irrelevant to the purpose of this website, not this democracy.
Please read what is written, not what you'd rather respond to.
