CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All!

Yay, the rec list!

What a great day for all Liberals, people of every gender and sexual orientation, and especially us Californians!

The California State Supreme court has declared that the ban on Gay Marriage is illegal.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/doc uments/S147999.DOC

Here's a link to the NYT article discussing the decision:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-CA-GayMarriage.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The California Supreme Court has overturned a ban on gay marriage, paving the way for California to become the second state where gay and lesbian residents can marry. The justices released the 4-3 decision Thursday, saying that domestic partnerships are not a good enough substitute for marriage in an opinion written by Chief Justice Ron George. The cases were brought by the city of San Francisco, two dozen gay and lesbian couples, Equality California and another gay rights group in March 2004 after the court halted San Francisco's monthlong same-sex wedding march that took place at Mayor Gavin Newsom's direction.

This represents a very real victory for proponents of equal rights here in CA. Many of my associates at Bay Area law schools attended the arguments, and we had been hoping that the decision would go this way. The judges seemed pretty skeptical as to the quality of the arguments presented by the State, and those presenting the defense seemed dispirited and a little upset that they were having to support a position they didn't believe in.

This is likely to go back to the ballot initiative this Fall; there will always be enough mouth-breathers to get stupid stuff on the ballot. So the fight isn't over yet!

Congrats to equality!

From the decision (hat-tip to Slim Tyrrany!):

[W]e conclude that the purpose underlying differential treatment of opposite-sex and same-sex couples embodied in California's current marriage statutes -- the interest in retaining the traditional and well-established definition of marriage -- cannot properly be viewed as a compelling state interest for purposes of the equal protection clause, or as necessary to serve such an interest. A number of factors lead us to this conclusion. First, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage clearly is not necessary in order to afford full protection to all of the rights and benefits that currently are enjoyed by married opposite-sex couples; permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage, because same-sex couples who choose to marry will be subject to the same obligations and duties that currently are imposed on married opposite-sex couples. Second, retaining the traditional definition of marriage and affording same-sex couples only a separate and differently named family relationship will, as a realistic matter, impose appreciable harm on same-sex couples and their children, because denying such couples access to the familiar and highly favored designation of marriage is likely to cast doubt on whether the official family relationship of same-sex couples enjoys dignity equal to that of opposite-sex couples. Third, because of the widespread disparagement that gay individuals historically have faced, it is all the more probable that excluding same-sex couples from the legal institution of marriage is likely to be viewed as reflecting an official view that their committed relationships are of lesser stature than the comparable relationships of opposite-sex couples. Finally, retaining the designation of marriage exclusively for opposite-sex couples and providing only a separate and distinct designation for same-sex couples may well have the effect of perpetuating a more general premise -- now emphatically rejected by this state -- that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects "second-class citizens" who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples. Under these circumstances, we cannot find that retention of the traditional definition of marriage constitutes a compelling state interest. Accordingly, we conclude that to the extent the current California statutory provisions limit marriage to opposite-sex couples, these statutes are unconstitutional.

I'd like to mention that this issue is very personal to me. Living here in the Bay Area, we have become very close to many people, of all ages and sexual orientations, and the idea that the rights of some of these people is less then others has always been impossible for me to accept. There's nothing different, or unAmerican, or wrong, about people wanting to live a happy and stable life together.

I'm an Obama supporter. I don't want to turn this into a candidate diary, b/c it has nothing to do with him. But this is something that we had the Audacity to Hope for, for a long time now. It's a sign to me that positive change can happen, if people work hard at it. Let that be the lesson for Obama supporters everywhere: it's the hard work that got this decision to go our way, NOT the sense that we were RIGHT. Being right on an issue is only the first step.

Cheers to you all!



Display:


Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 1)

gotta say I love Arnold! he opposes the initiative to change the CA Constitution! and get an amendment to vote this november!

way to go Arnold!


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:22:01 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (none / 0)

Arnold is a girly man who has no guts just like Edwards.

When he had a chance to approve gay marriage in Ca, he declined. TWICE!!!


by 1986dude on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 4)


by Trey Rentz on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh Puh-leeze (none / 0)

Don't try to turn this into a victory for the one candidate that threw gay people under the bus in the South Carolina Homophobic Road Show.

I don't want to turn this into a candidate diary, b/c it has nothing to do with him. But this is something that we had the Audacity to Hope for, for a long time now.

Give me a break...Obama is the LAST person I would be voting for...precisely because of the way he has treated glbt people during his campaign.

I was going to recommend the diary until I read that line.  Damn!


I am sick of the disrespect shown to Sen.Clinton by many on Dailykos, and now, too often, here. You aren't winning hearts and minds.
by SoCalVet on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Puh-leeze (none / 0)

jason west, a green mayor in new paltz ny (thats right hill's home state) took a stand on gay marriage a couple of years ago.  many court dates, protests etc etc. and the one thing i can tell you is that not one of those three senators looking to become POTUS came to new paltz. not even the one who happens to be the senator of ny. this was a big national story and an opportunity to take a stand, but noone did. NOONE.

so............?


by citizendave on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:27:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme (none / 0)

hmmm. Just in time for a Presidential election.


by WolfmanJack on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:22:37 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme (2.00 / 3)

uber-conservative initiatives fell flat in 2006, and would be even flatter in 2008, methinks. the first gay marriage amendment to be voted down was in 2006, South Dakota voted down an incredibly restrictive abortion ban and only passed a gay marriage amendment by a whopping 4%. that was a smaller margin than Oregon!


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, that wedge issue ran its course in 2004, I think.


by NewOaklandDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme (2.00 / 6)

We can all whine later about the problems this could cause in Nov, but for right now, lets kick back and celebrate this hard fought victory!


Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme (none / 0)

This will have backlash, because there's always backlash. But having this early in the cycle (May rather than October) means the backlash will subside significantly. Heck, we may not even hear about it very much after Tuesday because of the next batch of primaries.

More likely, it'll quiet and then June/July will be the apex for the topic, when the first actual marriages occur (from the article, 30 to 60 days from the time of the ruling), but after that, the conventions will refocus the discussion, using the economy, Iraq, etc., unless the DNC specifically chooses to emphasize gay marriage.


by TCQuad on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

YES that was the first thing I thought of...... (1.50 / 2)

I am all for gay rights, and I also live in California.  But I do fear the backlash of this.  I pray to God it doesnt become the dominating force behind some people's presidential choice.


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not SO worried (2.00 / 2)

I'm younger than most of those here and even among people my age supporting McCain, there is support for marriage equality.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not worried at all (2.00 / 1)

I'm surprised at how non-political the issue is becoming. To quote David Weigel on Reason.com: "The way things are going, Mitt Romney will be leading a pro-gay marriage campaign by 2016 or so."


by Rationalisto on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:41:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YES that was the first thing I thought of..... (none / 0)


I'm in Massachusetts. There are two phases of backlash- one of dealing with the concept, which was the nastier one, and it lasted until the actual issuing of marriage licenses.  I think that one is actually over in California- four years since Gavin Newsom's actions, all's been said and vented.

The second phase is when there are pictures on TV and in newspapers of two men in tuxedos or two buxom women, looking a bit unconventional, and captions telling that they're happily married.  That part only lasted a few weeks here-- four, maybe six at most.

Three months after the issuing of licenses here, polls showed what everybody already knew: average people were totally over the novelty of it.  It took a while longer for it become socially comfortable, but the political fuel just went away.

At that point average people didn't back it per se, but they didn't see the point of annulling the marriage licenses either.  Things changed remarkably quickly from 'I feel uncomfortable about it' to 'why not?  Just let them'.

Now the attitude is 'I've met some people like that who are married- they're good people, I don't see why should I be against that.'


by killjoy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Awesome (2.00 / 5)

Thanks for linking to the decision!


by Slim Tyranny on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:22:58 PM EST

Sweet (2.00 / 8)

Makes me want to become gay and get married.

You know, for a second or two.

But seriously, this is good news, even if it comes from one of our most liberal states.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:23:50 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 8)

I think I really might cry now.

Yup, here are the tears...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:23:54 PM EST

I'm with you jarhead. It is very (2.00 / 2)

gratifying to see that, what I never thought would happen in my lifetime, is actually happening. In the slow, inexorable march of history, truth does prevail. Now it's time for a little dustup in my state, Maine. After a 30 year struggle we finally secured protections against discrimination when it comes to work, housing, and public accomadation. We have a domestic partnership registry, and same sex couples can now adopt. After we fend off the fiendish Michael Heath of the Christian Civic League and his attempt to force a referendum to undo all of that, and more, we will push big-time for marriage equality in Maine. Marriage equality - coming soon to a town near you!


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 8)

Hooray for equality!

I wouldn't normally say this, but - plz recommend?  It's the most important news of the day by far.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:26:47 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 5)

i'm sure that for a number of californians (& perhaps americans generally), this is one of the most important news of a lifetime.  :-)
s.
by synth on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 4)

Like the fall of the Berlin Wall, something I had thought I would not live to see.  My faith in humanity is slowly being restored as time inexorably marches on, sweeping ignorance and hatred aside...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 2)

I have several professors that I work with here who are absolutely ecstatic - and are planning their weddings!


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 3)

i'm not a lawyer but the language that the court used seems very reminiscent of brown v. board of education, specifically:

that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects "second-class citizens" who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples

this is another way of phrasing: separate is inherently unequal, no?  & doesn't this then essentially align the struggle for marriage equality with the civil rights movement?

imo, it is, of course, & i might be reading too much into the language because i already think this.  but it seems like the court is framing this decision in such a way that the scotus, when this is appealed, would have tie themselves up into knots to refute.
s.


by synth on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (none / 0)

those are probably lifted directly from the briefs


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wonderful! I was trying to watch it on CNN, (2.00 / 3)

but someone trapped me on the phone. So excited about this! Another step in the right direction -- a small step, but an important one.


Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:27:14 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 3)

:-)


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:28:19 PM EST

The key passage: (2.00 / 2)

From the decision:

[W]e conclude that the purpose underlying differential treatment of opposite-sex and same-sex couples embodied in California's current marriage statutes -- the interest in retaining the traditional and well-established definition of marriage -- cannot properly be viewed as a compelling state interest for purposes of the equal protection clause, or as necessary to serve such an interest.

    A number of factors lead us to this conclusion.  First, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage clearly is not necessary in order to afford full protection to all of the rights and benefits that currently are enjoyed by married opposite-sex couples; permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage, because same-sex couples who choose to marry will be subject to the same obligations and duties that currently are imposed on married opposite-sex couples.  Second, retaining the traditional definition of marriage and affording same-sex couples only a separate and differently named family relationship will, as a realistic matter, impose appreciable harm on same-sex couples and their children, because denying such couples access to the familiar and highly favored designation of marriage is likely to cast doubt on whether the official family relationship of same-sex couples enjoys dignity equal to that of opposite-sex couples.  Third, because of the widespread disparagement that gay individuals historically have faced, it is all the more probable that excluding same-sex couples from the legal institution of marriage is likely to be viewed as reflecting an official view that their committed relationships are of lesser stature than the comparable relationships of opposite-sex couples.  Finally, retaining the designation of marriage exclusively for opposite-sex couples and providing only a separate and distinct designation for same-sex couples may well have the effect of perpetuating a more general premise -- now emphatically rejected by this state -- that gay individuals and same-sex couples are in some respects "second-class citizens" who may, under the law, be treated differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals or opposite-sex couples.  Under these circumstances, we cannot find that retention of the traditional definition of marriage constitutes a compelling state interest.  Accordingly, we conclude that to the extent the current California statutory provisions limit marriage to opposite-sex couples, these statutes are unconstitutional.



by Slim Tyranny on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:28:24 PM EST

Re: The key passage: (2.00 / 1)

Thanks - will add to the post.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

W00T! (2.00 / 8)

Let the record show that I, a straight white male living on the opposite side of the country from California, just did a little happy dance around my apartment.


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:28:24 PM EST

Re: W00T! (2.00 / 2)

Can we expect to see that on You Tube soon?  :-)


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:59:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In this day and age? (2.00 / 2)

It's probably been posted already. ;)

... although considering that I dance like a white straight male from Maryland I wouldn't advise watching it anywhere hysterical laughter would be inappropriate ...

(My apologies to any members of my demographic who actually can dance ;)


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In this day and age? (none / 0)

Purple People...  Hmmm...

The B-Side to Spark by Tori Amos?  Or just a coincidence?


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage! (2.00 / 2)

This is fantastic news! Hooray for Equality!

Recc'd with enthusiasm!


John McCain: Four More Years of Failure.
by dannybauder on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:28:42 PM EST

Two down... (2.00 / 3)

...48 to go!  I hope WA will be on this list soon!


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:30:36 PM EST

Good news (2.00 / 3)

I actually just simultaneously got an e-mail from a friend in CA telling me to watch for a Save the Date!

Looking forward to taking a trip to celebrate her and her partner's nuptials.


by zonk on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:33:41 PM EST

Obama's coattails (none / 0)

With an initiative likely on the California ballot this november to amend the state Constitution, I'm afraid of Obama's coattails.  With African-Americans in California in Support of this amendment by a greater than 2:1 margin, any increase in turnout energized by Obama's presidential bid will help the amendment pass.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollRepo rt.aspx?g=618d0ff4-8b30-4496-90de-5ebd41 c5b320


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:36:29 PM EST

Re: Obama's coattails (2.00 / 1)


Dude, it's not all about Messiah Obama.  You guys are getting all culty in 2001 Bush supporter fashion.  Soon you'll fear for his life every time he takes an airplane trip.

He's not much of a supporter of gay marriage legalization, either, so it's nice to see progress despite the social conservatives and centrists that make up his coalition.


by killjoy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's coattails (1.00 / 3)

let's hope the people of california keep their good sense and pass the constitutional amendment.

Democrats, please stand up for traditional moral values.

Also, I don't want the amendment to get caught up in phony debates like,  "if this passes then traditional marriage is somehow threatened".

up or down on the issue.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:12:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are a homophobic troll. (none / 0)

I am on to you, buddy.  And to think all this time I thought you were one of the good guys.  What the hell are doing on a Democratic site?


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are a homophobic troll. (2.00 / 2)

g You found the one black person on the Internet that prefers Hillary to Obama, and he happens to hate gay rights. Bummer for you, man. :-)

And forgive my hyperbole there :-)


by Aris Katsaris on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are a homophobic troll. (2.00 / 1)

I am black also (well, half to be honest), and I support Hillary.  Thing is, his attitude re: gays is consistent with the AA community's position and he and I know that.  I just expected that someone cultured and intelligent enough to be a regular blogger would have evolved past such blatant hatred.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's coattails (2.00 / 2)

"traditional moral values" ?

How traditional do you want us to become?

Once upon a time forbidding black people from marrying white people was another "traditional moral value".

If we go even further back, whipping misbehaving slaves was a traditional moral value.

Declaring Independence certainly went against every traditional moral value of obedience to your monarch.

But if we go really back in time, I'll remind you that Jesus bashed adultery (to which he included remarriage after a divorce) but he never bashed homosexuality.


by Aris Katsaris on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:33:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This rocks! (2.00 / 3)

Awesome news!!!


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:37:34 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 3)

YEs!!! YES!!! Yes!!!

Thus Gay man can now redraw his future :D


by el mito on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:42:55 PM EST

Rec list! (2.00 / 4)

C'mon folks, let's get this up there. :)


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:45:13 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 4)

ABOUT FRAKKIN TIME!
48 to go guys!
Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:52:39 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 4)

WOWWWWWW!!!!!!

Tears to my eyes....

YES!!!!


by markjay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:54:38 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 3)


Beautiful.  California drives hard- breaks through the defensive line, goes most of the way... and gets stopped just short of the goal, at the 1-yard line!

But it's enough for 4 new downs!  And lots of time on the clock.

Excellent news.  My expectations of the CSC were a lot lower.  On trend voter support for gay marriage legalization should be just a little under 50% in the state- maybe 48% or so.  This ruling should keep any referendum from succeeding.


by killjoy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:03:22 PM EST

Of relevance to the campaign (2.00 / 3)

this is one of the places we have an actual policy difference between Obama and Clinton.  The Defense of Marriage Act, signed into law by Bill, means states do not have to recognize same sex marriages from other states.

Obama is on record as wanting to repeal the DOMA in its entirety.

Clinton is on record as wanting to make some modifications to the DOMA, but leave that aspect of it in place.


by Rorgg on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:06:52 PM EST

I fully expect (none / 0)

both Democratic candidates to run from gay marriage. Perhaps they might say "this is California's decision, but I don't agree with same-sex marriage" or something or another.

This is probably not something the nation is ready for, even if California, Massachusetts and a few select states are.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (1.00 / 8)

not ready for it because it is wrong.

I abhor everyone trying to act as though this is inevitable.

We can make rational choices as a society out of love for our culture and famlies and the desire to do what's right.

It's not a one way street because some people say it is.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

your opinion (2.00 / 5)

I make the rational choice to support marriage equality out of love for culture and families and because it's right.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: your opinion (none / 0)

I'm on the fence on the subject of gay marriage.  Not really against, but not for, either.

But this is going to kill us in the GE.


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:28:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (2.00 / 3)

Don't do this.  Don't do this in my diary.

If you disagree with the decision, go away, please.  I don't want to get into an argument, but this equality for all is one of the fundamental pillars of the Democratic party and you SHOULD support today's decision.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (1.00 / 5)

oh i see,
you get to celebrate, and please don't interrupt with other opinions, and facts?

I would start a diary but I've already written one today and don't want to be banned.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (none / 0)

You're allowed to write two in one day; go write another one if you are looking to make people angry.

I'm sure you're well aware that nobody is going to agree with you on this issue.  This is a question of equality and nothing more.  Your personal morality should have no more to do with equality then mine does; it's a question of law.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (none / 0)

"not ready for it because it is wrong.
I abhor everyone trying to act as though this is inevitable.
We can make rational choices as a society out of love for our culture and famlies and the desire to do what's right.
It's not a one way street because some people say it is."

and then

"please don't interrupt with other opinions, and facts?"

Which, exactly, of these statements is a fact?


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (none / 0)

Oh, you're gonna be banned alright.  I'm surprised you're still here.

Go away and NEVER come back.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (none / 0)

go join the republican party since you are opposed to civil rights. Your candidate McCain
opposed civil rights once so you should feel right at home.
by applecrispbetty on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (none / 0)

John Edwards came out against gay marriage.

Should he be expelled?


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (2.00 / 2)

Hmm.  This is disappointing coming from a Hillary supporter.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (2.00 / 1)

From one Hillary supporter to another, please shut up. I honestly can't believe that anyone would be using right wing talking points to try to counter this. You should be ashamed to call yourself a progressive.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I fully expect (2.00 / 2)

So your America should make rational choices to oppose equality, and legislate religious oppression.

Your America sounds like Iran.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (1.00 / 4)

it's not all. People who are in love with their children can't marry each other.

People who are in love with people under 18 can't get married.

3 people who love each other can't get married.

the point is: I disagree with this decision.

I hope Democratic voters in California overturn it.

We the people have a right to define morality as we determine it.

That makes us human.  It is not hateful or bigotry.

If democrats don't stand for common sense, we will lose the majority we are now creating, and we should.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:10:01 PM EST

So (2.00 / 1)

let's define it as between two consenting non-related adults if that's what makes you happy.

I guess I just define morality different than you, but if you love your child the same way you love your significant other, well that's a mental issue.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

oH YOU are low.

You are very low, and vile.

You should be banned.


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:31:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

what does two consenting adults have to do with the things you list? of which you list, I think 3 people should hold the right to "wed".


!
by alex100 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (1.00 / 2)

i think incest is wrong. Do you? Do democratic politicians?

I hope so.

yet, the logic here, by the cal. court and elsewhere is:

if 2 consenting adults are involved it can't be wrong?

no.  
we have a right to maintain moral values and define society as we wish, otherwise there's an argument for almost anything.

for example:

i eat cow meat (beef) it is a living animal that is killed for food.

what if someone says:
i eat cat meat , it is a living animal that is killed for my food.

ok?

no.
we have a right in our culture to determine that it is ok to eat beef and not cats.

I use this example to show you all behavior and choices don't have constitutional protection.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If someone wants to eat a cat (2.00 / 1)

I could really care less.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If someone wants to eat a cat (1.00 / 1)

try winning an election on that one.

try it yourself and wind up in jail.


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't eat cats (none / 0)

but your point is we need to decide what's ok and what's not ok...who gets to decide that, you?
me? the California Supreme Court?

The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't eat cats (1.00 / 1)

you, me, and we the people through our elections, through referendums, not courts.

the governor veteod the legislation.

so guess what?

next election that could be a big issue.

It should not be up to 1 vote on a court.

this will set up a circumstance now where the people will be "overturning" a court decision, rather than defining what they want.

I have to go but I will be back later, just in case people think I left because I couldn't answer.
thanks


by yellowdem1129 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:26:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't eat cats (none / 0)

your argument is logically bankrupt. Courts are completely valid in our society and have been through our nation's history.

but not only that, if our constitution decries freedom to pursue happiness, the courts not only have a say, but they have an obligation to do the RIGHT thing to protect that pursuit of happiness (and freedom). Any and every argument you can make for banning same-sex couples from union can be disposed of easily.


!
by alex100 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

What an insult to gay people and your thinly veiled homophobia comes through loud and clear!..hence the TR


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 0)

just because I wouldn't do something doesn't make it "wrong" for someone else.

and the cat analogy is lost on me. I'm a vegetarian. I don't care if you eat cat or dog or cow. It's all the same to me. really. I don't look down on meat eaters for catering to the diet they think is "morally" okay.


!
by alex100 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

We the people have a right to define morality as we determine it

The California legislature -- the elected body representing the people of California -- voted to legalize gay marriage, but the legislation was not signed by Gov. Schwarzenneger, who said that he was awaiting the results of the Supreme Court decision.  I hope and expect that another bill will be passed by the legislature shortly.  They are the elected representatives of the people who, according to you, have a right to define morality.


by markjay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

TR'ed for Sam Brownback esque homophobia.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

Ya know, it's probably best for you to just avoid these discussions.  Post in other threads about other topics where we are on common ground.  I hate trying to stifle debate, but your views are so reactionary that debate is not helpful to anyone, and you end up getting troll-rated.


by Skaje on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

You are not even stating facts. There are several states where under 18 folks can get married. Do your homework.


by applecrispbetty on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's great (2.00 / 0)

superb news.


!
by alex100 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:15:12 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

This is awesome!!  My wife and I almost didn't get married because we felt like it was wrong to claim a liberty not extended to all americans.  We eventually caved when we decided to have children and wanted the legal rights that came with marriage.  We felt like creeps for it, and we don't go against our beliefs lightly.  That fact that we chose to illustrates how important this is.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful!!

Let's hope that it spreads.

On a related, but slightly different topic:

Surveys are showing that a lot of forms of bigotry are the shortcoming of the generation currently in its twilight while the generation ascending to control of government doesn't feel the same.  Sounds great to me.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:21:41 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 0)

i've been in the same boat for the past 4 years with my girlfriend. I think I'll be caving soon as she's none to happy with the wait.

so much for my ideology. I do get to marry the most amazing person I've ever met though.


!
by alex100 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

I did too.  Works great for me.

Sappy free advice:

Spend your life showing her that you love her, not just telling her.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i havent read through the decision (none / 0)

but it looks like they just struck down the law as unconstitutional...

did it actually create gay marriage as well?


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:27:57 PM EST

Re: i havent read through the decision (none / 0)

Gay marriage doesn't have to be created, lol

If it isn't banned, it's legal.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:30:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i havent read through the decision (none / 0)

Is that really the case throughout California?  Or does that require some other state or local ruling or decision?


by markjay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you are right. (none / 0)

the decision gives the plaintiff's the "writ of mandate" (writ of mandamas) to compell the appropriate state officials to enforce the decision.

If they dont enforce (arguably within a reasonable time) then the plaintiff's can file a motion to compell, or a motion to hold those officials in contempt of the decision of the court.

I dont think the decision says "since its not illegal, it must be legal"

Also, there are going to have to be administrative laws dealing with how to hand them out etc.

Plus, the Cali/ government is going to need time to print up new forms (presumably the old ones had husband and wife... but that wont fit anymore).

Then there's all the marriage licenses.  What do those say? Does the language now have to be gender neutral?

It isnt like i can walk up to the courthouse tomorrow to get married.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are right. (none / 0)

Sadly no, but it ain't like they can tell you no anymore either!!  The people who are right won and the people who are wrong lost.  It's time to jump through some hoops, but the Supreme Court of the state of California says the shutting away of that right is not kosher!

I digg it!


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thankfully (none / 0)


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well NY court (none / 0)

struck down the "man and woman" statute but said it was up to the legislature to decide what to do next.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right (2.00 / 1)

New York's ruling states marriage equality is not already defined within our Constitution (I'm a New Yorker) As a strong staunch gay rights and marriage equality supporter, I tend to think that may be true.

However, the NY Court of Appeals strongly, I mean strongly, said marriage equality can only be and should immediately be, legalized through legislative means. Marriage equality passed the Assembly and Governor Paterson endorses it, but the State Senate is holding it up. New York is literally 2-3 State Senate seats away from legalizing it through legislative means.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right (none / 0)

yes i know - i am also in ny


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 0)

Wow! I thought there was a conservative majoirty on the Cali Supreme Court, but hey this great news.


by bsavage on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:28:49 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

There is, really - which is why it was a 4-3 split.

But three Deukmejian/Wilson-appointed justices joined with a Gray Davis-appointed justice to point out that "separate but equal" is not.


by Last Frontier Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There sorta is (none / 0)

All but one justice was appointed by Republican Governors;

Of the three who dissented, two were appointed by Pete Wilson and one by Schwarzeneggar

The four in the majority, two were appointed by Wilson, one by George Deukmejian, and one by Gray Davis.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

I wish our party had the guts to stop playing defense on this issue!  But this is still a huge win for all Americans who hate bigotry and the fear based politics of gay bashing.  I'm very happy for the people of California, and I hope any gays who want to marry head in from Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Arizona, and wherever else they may be!  

The more gay marriages, the better!  People will see how little it affects anything and, I hope, resistance will fade.


Donate to Obama, Today!
by freedom78 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:29:07 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

why, so we could lose? Being for, or being seen as for gay marriage loses the White House, exhibit a: John Kerry. Bush and the GOP implied that Dems and Kerry wanted it, made people believe it, put initiatives on ballots, including Ohio, and won the 2004 election. Kerry didn't come out hard enough against it. That is why a plurality of 2004 voters chose moral values as their issue, and went 80+ percent to Bush. We can't afford that this year. We need to win the White House first, and I'm scared this decision will hurt us in the general election again this year, just like the MA decision cemented Kerry as a "massachusetts liberal"


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

I didn't mean to imply that it had to be a part of a Presidential candidate's platform.  But, yes, fighting discrimination and legalized bigotry isn't something we should shirk from.  

Fighting at the state level is good, but will only go so far.  Eventually, this will come to the SC, probably in the form of people who were married in one state but denied their rights as a married couple in another.  


Donate to Obama, Today!
by freedom78 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:56:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With all the problems we face now (none / 0)

as compared to 2004, if that many people vote for McCain based on some idiotic reasoning like gay marriage, then this country deserves to fall.


The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 09:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

This will likely be appealed to the US Supreme Court. Guess what'll happen there?


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:42:29 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court would hear this.  This was in reference to a California referendum.  I think the issue stops here in California.


by markjay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

Wouldn't those appealing have standing on the grounds that it was decided on the equal-protection clause? That's federal territory, I think. Not a lawyer either.

Anyone with knowledge want to chime in?


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nope (none / 0)

they cant
BECAUSE OF DOMA it cannot be challenged
Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

its not only federal territory (none / 0)

federal EP is the baseline.

Each state then start at that baseline, and can expand on it.

The decision does not affect the other states because of DOMA so there isnt any federal repurcussions (other states are not affected).

This is solely a California state issue.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

It in all likelihood won't be heard by the US Supreme court at all.

Why the negativity, Nancy?  It's a wonderful day!


by Lawyerish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

The Massachusetts supreme court decision was NOT appealed to the supreme court and the movement to overturn it just fizzled out


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why wasnt it appealed? (none / 0)

hmm?


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

It won't.

My understanding is that this decision is based either in whole or in part on the California Constitution, not the U.S. Constitution.  The U.S. Supreme Court has no grounds to review it.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

Top of the Rec List!!!  Wonderful!!!


by markjay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:44:01 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

What great news! Aside from my joy at a decision that comes down squarely on the side of equality and basic human rights, anything that causes pain and anguish for our local whackjob, Fred Phelps, is a good thing in my opinion.


Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:55:53 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

And cheers to you for caring. San Francisco where I went to school for my sheepskin has a way of teaching tolerance of all kinds--including the weather :) But seriously, Gavin Newsome, a wonderful Democrat who endorsed Hillary, deserves the lion share of credit for this decision. He stood up for civil rights of all Amereicans!!Too bad Obama didn't want to have his picture taken with him.


by linfar on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:25:57 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Thursday, May 15, 2008
Contact: Mayor's Office of Communications,
415-554-6131

Thursday, May 15, 2008

11:15 AM PST
Mayor Newsom to hold media conference call re: California State Supreme
Court ruling on same sex marriage
For Domestic Calls Dial: 800-868-1837
For International Calls Dial: 404-920-6440
The participant code: 956723#
To ask a question, dial #1
The call will be moderated. Space is limited so please be prompt
 calling
in.

12:00 PM
Mayor Newsom, City Attorney Dennis Herrera, and National Center for
 Lesbian
Rights (NCLR) to hold press conference re: California State Supreme
 Court
ruling on same sex marriage
Grand Staircase
Rotunda, City Hall

Giselle Barry
Deputy Director of Communications
Office of the Mayor
City Hall, Room 291
(415) 554-6131
fax: (415) 554-6690


by linfar on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:26:45 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 1)

It's great to see us all here, Obama and Clinton partisans, celebrating this momentous day.  From everything I've read, they can't take this to the US Supreme Court due to the nature of the ruling (based on California's constitution).

We just gotta focus on beating back any constitutional amendments that rear their ugly heads in response to this.

And to any Republican who tries to turn this happy day into a bludgeon to beat Democrats with....FUCK YOU.

Marriage equality is here to stay.


by Skaje on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:46:18 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 0)

This is wonderful news and something all Democrats should be supporting. Yes some of us love Obama and some Clinton but at the end of the day it really is the ISSUES that matter


by rossinatl on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:20:16 PM EST

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (2.00 / 0)

My partner just told me that I'm running out of excuses and running out of states in which to hide.

Darn.

:)


by Rationalisto on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:45:20 PM EST

Love it! (none / 0)

<3's for you.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CA Supreme Court: Yes to Marriage for All! (none / 0)

That's the next step in equality for me.  I know my girlfriend wants to marry me and is just waiting for me to ask and present the ring (damn they're expensive).  But why can't it work the other way?  In anycase, I've demanded a PS3 when I pop the question, she shouldn't be the only one to get gifts.


by shalca on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:47:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

R