Clinton Camp Wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million Voters

Much ado has been made about Michigan and Florida for breaking the rules of the DNC, and how we should settle the delegate dilemma.  Hillary Clinton wants the votes to count that were held pre-maturely, as-is, claiming it would disenfranchise 2.5 million voters.

However, there were many people who did not vote because they were told their votes wouldn't count anyway (even by Senator Clinton herself).  Do we just say "screw them"?  According to the Clinton campaign, that's exactly what we should do...

Studies and polls have shown as many as 2 million voters stayed home and did not bother to vote in the Michigan and Florida primaries because they were told the vote didn't count for anything anyway.

Based on a statistical comparison with turnout in other states' primaries, it appears that roughly two million more people would have voted in Florida and Michigan had they expected their delegates to be seated.

Although the Democratic turnout rate was impressive in Florida and Michigan, it was not nearly as high as it has been in other primaries so far. Of the first 37 states that have held either a primary or caucus for both Republicans and Democrats, only six states have had a larger turnout for Republicans than for Democrats: Florida and Michigan, plus heavily Republican Alaska, Alabama, and Utah, as well as Arizona, where many voters turned out to support home state favorite John McCain. In many other states, Democratic voters outnumbered Republican voters by at least 3 to 2. Simply stated, in states where Democratic voters expected their delegates to count and the candidates spent time and money campaigning, Democratic turnout has vastly exceeded Republican turnout. The fact that Republicans outnumbered Democrats in Florida and Michigan suggests that many would-be Democratic voters in those states chose not to vote at a much higher rate than in other states.

Are these voters less important than ones that the Hillary Clinton campaign are "fighting for"?  Is this the way that all the votes of Michigan and Florida are counted?  If HRC will only fight for half of the voters in Michigan and Florida, will she only fight for half of us?

They say, again and again, that the people who bothered to come out and vote can't be ignored, and deserve to have their voices heard. *But an election only has meaning if it's a fair reflection of the voices of all those entitled to be heard.*

So what about the people who didn't vote? Of 4.1 million registered Democrats in Florida, for instance, only 1.7 million voted. The rest of them -- 2.4 million -- were told the election didn't count. Presumably, that influenced a bunch of them to not vote.

Now, if you switch around and count the votes, you put the party in the position of having essentially lied to 2.4 million registered Democrats in Florida, tricked them out of having their voices heard. Why are the people who ignored the party more deserving than the people who took the party at its word?

*Any way you cut it, if you count the outcome, you've stolen the votes of an even larger number of Democrats by misleading them.*

So the HRC campaign wants the people who listened to the Democratic party and the candidates (HRC herself) and  did not vote to be penalized over the people who went ahead and voted.

*My husband and I support Sen. Barack Obama, but we didn't vote for him in the Florida primary because the DNC said the vote would not count.*

-TOMASINA GALANTI, Ormond Beach, Florida

*Yet many people, like me and my entire family, stayed away from the polls that day because there was no compelling reason to make the effort.*

-David T. Young, Michigan

So according to the Clinton campaign we should disenfranchise Mr. & Mrs. Galanti, Mr. Young, and 2 million other voters in Michigan and Florida because they followed the guidance of the DNC and the words of Hillary herself.

So much for a fair election....

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 03/who_didnt_vote_in_the_florida.html

http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/local/lo ngisland/politics/blog/2008/05/michigan_ florida_what_about_th.html

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJo urnalOnline/Opinion/LettersToTheEditor/l etLET052008.htm

http://compulsorynews.blogspot.com/2008/ 02/michigan-democratic-primary-lets-do-i t.html

[editor's note, by hootie4170] Please look at this study. It explains why more voters would have come out if they had known their delegates would have been seated. http://www.dcourage.com/Nini%20-%20Problem%20with%20Existing%20FL%20and%20MI%20Primaries.pdf

Display:


Tips/Flames (2.00 / 27)

I can take it...


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:06:26 AM EST

This can't be! (2.00 / 4)

Hillary is the one who cares about the votes!

Rise, Hillary, Rise!


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Strong Leader For Difficult Times. (2.00 / 1)

SHE CAN DO IT!!!


by dystopianfuturetoday on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 7)

cutting votes in half and keeping folks out of our convention this summer.

GIVE

ME

A

BREAK!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 3)

No, she's just all about making sure the 2 million people who didn't vote because the were told by their party and their candidates (including HRC) that it wouldn't matter anyways..


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 3)

utterly idiotic. so the people that MAY have not voted because they were following DNC rules and decided to punish themselves, these hypothetical people are being disenfranchised, whereas the hundreds of thousands of REAL voters who did go to the polls - - - no they aren't nearly as important to you.   what ridiculous logic.

i take it then you're completely on board that a far larger percentage of voters in caucus states then were disenfranchised, as evidenced in the caucus/primary state results.


by swissffun on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

Thanks, I just printed out your comment....using it as a poo picker-upper when I take the dog for a walk.


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:28:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 2)

please feel free to use it as a napkin afterwards. bon apetit


by swissffun on Thu May 29, 2008 at 06:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 1)

When you are told, by the people in charge, that there is going to be an exhibition game, if you decide to play for the practice of it, fine.  But don't complain after the fact that it was an exhibition and you want it somehow changed to a real game.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Facts must now reign (none / 0)

To vote in a party primary and have your vote count one must abide by the parties rules.  All members of the party signed off on the rules at the start of the campaigns, and all the campaigns like those of Edwards, Richardson, Obama, Clinton, Kucinich, and the rest signed off on it.

You are not disenfranchised if you don't vote in a party primary at all.  You may in fact start another party and run your own primaries if the rules of the party you belong to do not suit you.  There are many races where primaries are completely irrelevant because the nominee has already been decided, for example the California one in 1992.

We are still undergoing an administration that plays fast and loose with the facts why are we going down that road again.


by Adept2u on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:54:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 4)

Lemme try this again...

No, she's just all about making sure the 2 million people who didn't vote won't get their voices heard because the were told by their party and their candidates (including HRC) that it wouldn't matter anyways..

That's better


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:45:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 2)

Yet another substantive response.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:55:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 4)

This commenter never posts any substance.

It's all about the talking points.


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:57:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 1)

Oh, I'm well aware.  That doesn't make it any less annoying.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:16:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

WTF is your problem????

/snark


by gcensr on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:11:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 1)

Can you reply to the fact that Clinton is ready to ignore the millions who stayed home because SHE was amongst those who said their votes wouldn't count?

Or those who voted for a DIFFERENT candidate because they were told (by CLINTON, among others) that their votes wouldn't count?

Or is it ok to steal votes and disenfranchise if it benefits your candidate?


Obama in November.
by Artemis Jax on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

No, No and Yes.


by futbol dad on Thu May 29, 2008 at 05:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

Alegre... please explain how we are to honor the votes of those who stayed home that day because they were told the election didn't count.  I'd be pleased to see your perspective.


by mikeinsf on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (2.00 / 1)

but your alternative - to disenfranchize even the ones who voted - makes no sense.


by searchforsolidarity on Thu May 29, 2008 at 06:14:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ummm (none / 0)

Of course it does.  They were always told this was an exhibition, a practice game.  If they want to vote anyway, more power to them.  But it doesn't change it from a practice game to a real game.  

The only reason they are even going to get something like 1/2 the regular delegates (not the same as 1/2 the vote which some people like to say) is because the voters are not at fault and we don't want to alienate these states forever.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:20:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

Enfranchisement is NOT awarding delegates for a contest that was held with the full expectation that delegates would NOT BE AWARDED.

This is really a simple point that not a single Hillary Clinton supporter has been able to be honest about.

Pretending that an election in which voters were told (including by HRC!!!) that nothing was at stake except perhaps perception, is not enfranchising anyone, it's taking a sham election and making it count.

In once case you have a state with just one name on it.  It was left on with the rationale that the election "wouldn't count for anything".   Yet you say giving them delegates is about enfranchisement?!?

In the other, you have an election with two names on it, (yes, I know there were more), as well as a ballot initiative that would have changed the state's constitution, and voters were again told their votes would not count for delegates (though by this point, Hillary had begun losing and changed her tune in an effort to get them).  Yet you pretend that turnout, in large part the result of the ballot issues, should somehow result in awarding delegates WHEN VOTERS WERE TOLD IT WOULDN'T.

This whole debate is not about enfranchising voters, it's about electing Hillary Clinton.  Ironically, even giving in to her absurd demands, she still can't win.


by Pragmatic Left on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:22:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

This would be Alegre's solution:

The last available polls should be used to allocate the 2 million "votes" to the popular vote totals, so Clinton would get 75% of all delegates and %75 of all votes. She wins! Yay!!


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

In what planet do people who specifically voted "NOT Hillary" get their votes allocated to Hillary Clinton anyway?

This is Alegra and Lanny Davis' "fair" solution.


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's amusing when you pretend to care... (2.00 / 3)

about voting rights.

If you cared about voting rights, you would have diaried this in the fall.  You would not diaried about a "fair" situation in which Hillary gets 75% of the delegates out of MI, including half of those who explicitly voted against her in a one sided beauty contest.  You would not so casually dismiss the many individuals in MI and FL who took the party at their word that the contests that were held would not count and stayed home (or voted for Mitt Romney) because of that.  You would not be talking about awarding delegates based on polls.

You do not care about counting votes, you want to count the votes that Clinton said wouldn't count, but now wants to count, because she is losing.  But you don't care at all about the voters that would be disenfranchised by counting a sham election where both voters and non-voters were told their votes would not result in delegates.

You can pretend this about enfranchisement, but most of realize this is simply about benefiting Hillary Clinton.  

I'm sorry, but you are fooling noone as to your motivations except those that already agree with you, and even you and they, I suspect are only half kidding yourselves.


by Pragmatic Left on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Worse yet. (2.00 / 1)

While some probably went to the polls to take advantage of the opportunity to check a box next to Hillary's name, knowing it would not count, and others went to the polls for another ballot issue and (oh by the way) checked Hillary's name because it was the one they recognized, a whole lot of people probably went to the polls and voted for Hillary because they were too uninformed to realize that it didn't count! So not only does this penalize a whole bunch of voters who stayed home, it disproportionately penalizes SMART voters.

Think of what would have happened if the Clinton campaign could have gotten a large percentage of smart voters to stay home in every state.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:33:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

That was very, very snarky.  Mojo'd for that trademarked Alegre snark.  Snarky!!!


I like baked beans.
by SpideyDem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

So your argument is that simply because Hillary Clinton is saying something, it must be true? That really doesn't make any sense, which, of course, leads me to ask:

Is this snark?

Serious question.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

Explain how your solution of giving Hillary 100% of the Michigan vote is less offensive to voters?


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

Why do you think Hillary is fighting this fight now, Alegre? And not in September. Or November. Or December. Et al.

No Clinton supporter ever has a convincing reason for La Hillary's sudden concern.


by Rationalisto on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah - Because SHE's The One Yelling About (none / 0)

I don't understand how you can claim Clinton is such a voter's rights advocate screaming about how unfair it would be to count 1/2 votes from unsanctioned FL and MI primaries, but at the same time NOT count the millions who showed up and spent hours of their time at legitimate caucuses.

Give ME a freakin break.


by TexH on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is this Snark? (none / 0)


by brathor on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This can't be! (none / 0)

Sure...of course she does...;-/


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames (2.00 / 2)

Thanks.  I've been citing that study since February and nobody has addressed it.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames (none / 0)

It won't be addressed because no honest answer fits the Clinton talking points.


by mikeinsf on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

D.U.M.B. (1.00 / 2)

Dont you mind being unable to think clearly or add or subject....basic logis just eludes those who think a man who keep doing worse and worse as he limps into Denver can do well in Nov....


by debcoop on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D.U.M.B. (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, but see when I say DUMB I don't mean it like stupid, to me dumb breaks down a whole nother way.

It's D.U.M.B

*D*efinitely
*U*nified
*M*cCain
*B*eaters

See you and me, we're speaking the same language.


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a selective memory you have! (1.66 / 3)

What about the same voters that Obama stopped from re-voting? How do you explain that?


by suzieg on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a selective memory you have! (2.00 / 3)

For the umpteenth time, Obama has no control over the FL and MI legislatures, therefore he has no power to stop revotes...It is strictly the decision of the states and the DNC..


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why do we even bother... (2.00 / 2)

trying to argue with the cognitive dissonance brigade?


by Tenafly Viper on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:01:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a selective memory you have! (2.00 / 1)

right. say it all you want, but he actively pressured them not to get a revote. silliness! of course he has a say. even the DNC has said that both campaigns will decide this with the DNC.


by swissffun on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:14:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a selective memory you have! (2.00 / 4)

He wants/wanted a revote where Democrats and Independents who voted Republican could participate.  They voted Republican because nothing else counted.

And he wants people that did not vote to be able to vote in a revote.

That's it.  If Michigan would do that (they didn't because Hillary was against it), it would have happened.  


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a selective memory you have! (1.00 / 1)

stop feeding the troll.
Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a selective memory you have! (none / 0)

Man, I don't know how many times these points have to be repeated....


A PROUD Hopium user!
by xodus1914 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a selective memory you have! (none / 0)

Umpteen +1.  Or one gazillion squared.  Whichever comse first - before June 3rd, that is.


by futbol dad on Thu May 29, 2008 at 05:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Moral duplicity will get you nowhere... (2.00 / 2)

So let's pretend for a second that you aren't just repeating the most ridiculous talking point of this election season.  Even if Obama were able to stop the revote simply by not encouraging the revote, he hasn't made this his cause.  His position has remained consistent throughout this primary season; he has stood in solidarity with the DNC from the beginning.

Let's not forget that Obama isn't the candidate running around acting like the bastion of all things democratic.  Your candidate is.  

The hypocrisy of this situation is glaring and unjustifiable, which is why no Hillary supporter has been able to offer anything but ad hominem arguements, completely lacking in a logical refutation.


by Tenafly Viper on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:58:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames (none / 0)

They're registered voters, not voters. If you did not vote, you are not a voter, but a potential vote. So, the registered voters that stayed at home chose to not have their voices heard.


by Check077 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:57:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames (none / 0)

They "chose" that because they were told multiple times before the election that voting or not voting would garner the same result, which was nothing.  They were told that they were NOT potential voters, because their delegation would not be seated.  Now one candidate is saying AFTER the vote, "oh yeah, you should have voted" and giving the proverbial middle finger to those that stayed home because "it's clear that Michigan won't count for anything."


by shalca on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames (none / 0)

Oh my god.

If you can say that, then I can say that Michigan and Florida voters chose not to be represented at the convention, because that was the will of their legislatures.

By asking for a delegation from those two states, you're ignoring the will of the people, as duly represented by their elected officials.


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:34:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

even worse comment from earlier today (none / 0)

quoting hillary via msnbc a few minutes ago:


"When the primaries are finished, I expect to lead in the popular vote and in delegates earned through primaries... Ultimately, the point of our primary process is to pick our strongest nominee."

doesn't this seem to imply that the caucus states shouldn't count or am i reading too much into this here?


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: even worse comment from earlier today (2.00 / 1)

Basically yeah.  Popular vote is a slick way of say "ignore the caucus states".


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 8)

Here's a rec from Ann Arbor.  Thanks for your support on this.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:09:49 AM EST

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 3)

Thanks...both sides of the story need to be out there...


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 12)

If this were about voting rights, there would have been diaries and speeches by Sen. Clinton about it in the fall.  How no one can see it is just political opportunism is just beyond me.


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:12:36 AM EST

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Please, Obama would have done the exact same thing if he was in her position and you know. All you have to do is look at his campaign style. So give me a break with this. Count the votes. Stop bitching. This is the Democratic Party for Christs sakes.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 3)

Ironic post of the night.

I wonder if it's ok for him to say "bitchin" since he's a Clinton supporter.

I guess he won't get t'rated.


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:17:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

he/she (sorry about that)

So how about it? I think it's outrageous to use this word! SEXIST!


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (1.00 / 1)

If you want to troll rate me just do it, don't complain.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:25:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 7)

If Obama did the same thing, I would be extremely disappointed in him and I would rethink my support for him.

Your assertion that he would is pure speculation and doesn't make Clinton's political opportunism right.


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:20:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Ah, excuse me, politics is all about opportunism. Have you not realized that by now. Any presidential candidate would have tried to seat those delegates had they won those two states. This is politics, not the playground.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 5)

For Hillary Clinton, politics may be all about opportunism, about doing whatever it takes to win, including lying (Tuzla).  That's why a majority of all Americans do not consider her trustworthy.

I am certain that Obama would not have done the same thing Hillary Clinton has done.  Please do not make baseless accusations based on nothing other than an extremely cynical view of human nature.  


by ProfessorReo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

please!!! He stopped their chance to come out and re-vote because he knew he would lose, plain and simple - if anyone wanted to disenfranchise any voters, it's him!!!


by suzieg on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:01:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 3)

Bologna.   I don't know what the current polling says, but there were times that Obama had more support in Michigan than Clinton did.   If Obama's name had been on the Michigan ballot, he had a fair shot at winning.    Think about it.   Clinton barely got 50% of the vote and she was the only major candidate on the ballot.   What does that say about her level of support at the time?


by deadinthewater on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 2)

Actually, he polls better than her in MI right now.


by mikeinsf on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (1.00 / 1)

If he stopped the revote because he'd lose, why is he now agreeing to a compromise that could give her more delegates?

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/200 8/05/obama-aide-to-n.html


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:01:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

politics about opportunism (none / 0)

Do you mean that your own self interest is all that matters.  Sure seems that way to me.  In that case I'm not so sure I trust Hillary Clinton if opportunism rules the day.


by Adept2u on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:03:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 6)

So... two wrongs (one hypothetical) make a right?

Really, did you just admit that Clinton doesn't care, she's only doing this for political gain... and then go on to insist that's okay because "Obama would do it, too", and THEN tell us to "Count all the votes"?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 4)

Please, Obama would have done the exact same thing if he was in her position and you know.

Actually, I don't think he would have. But that's not important. We can hypothesize all day long at what Obama (would have) done had he been in her position.  

What IS important is you basically just admitted Clinton's "outrage" is politically motivated.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:02:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Outstanding comment RJEvans (2.00 / 5)

That's the first time I've heard a Clinton supporter admit that seating MI and FL is all about political opportunism. I'm almost moved to stand and salute.


by 79blondini on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:11:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Outstanding comment RJEvans (2.00 / 1)

Don't forget your flag pin!


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:25:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Probably true.  But because he was not married to a former president, he would have been forced out long ago. (/Reality)

And I find your comment about "bitching" to be sexist.  (/Snark)


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

"Obama would have"

So you can see into alternate time streams?

Unfortunately for you, logical people can only debate what has actually happened. Not what "would" have happened or "could" have happened.

If that were the case, then I'd like to discuss the Democratic cakewalk to the presidency we could have had if Hillary would have dropped out in early May.


by Rationalisto on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:15:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Because they don't want to (2.00 / 1)

Why did so many people believe that Saddam was responsible for 9-11?  Cognitive dissonance is cosy.  


by Sun Dog on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 2)

Your entire argument that it is Clinton's fault people did not vote and somehow she is responsible, falls flat. I don't have to explain to you why. You know why.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:12:45 AM EST

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 2)

You don't have to explain?

Uhh. Yes you do.

Why raise an issue if you can't back it up?


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:15:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 3)

No my argument is she's fighting for the voters who voted in a primary that was non-sanctioned by the DNC and the candidates themselves.  Why isn't she fighting for the 2 million who followed orders from the DNC and the candidates and didn't vote because they were told it didn't matter anyway.


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 3)

You want to talk about rules? The DNC didn't even follow their own rules. Enough of this, count the votes. Move along.

If you worry about the 2 million people who did not vote in FL, lets worry about the millions of other people who did not vote in sanctioned primaries. Lets worry about the millions of other voters who never had a chance to vote in a caucus because they had to work or had children to watch. Lets worry about them too. Please, people have a right to choose when to exercise their right to vote, but no one has a right to take away their right to vote.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 4)

Bullshit, when they are told by the DNC, their party leaders, and by the candidates themselves that their vote won't count anyway and the make a choice based on that information and do not vote that is not their fault.

If you wanna say fuck these people that's your right, but they chose not to vote based on information from their party and their candidates...


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 2)

yep, DEM voters always just do what the DNC leaders say.


by swissffun on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

Hey a red hearring!  Off the trail I go!


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Funny, I thought it was a non sequitor.


by futbol dad on Thu May 29, 2008 at 05:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

Actually the local party and their party leaders said their vote would count.

The national party and the campaigns contadicted this.

The truth was that it was always likely even if not completely certain that either one of the two relevant commisions would over rule the decision or the convention.

You can't use "they were told that their vote wouldn't count ever!" as a justification as the ones doing the telling weren't the definitive voice on that and the voters were also told the opposite, namely that their voices would count, as well.

It's a difficult issue on which many positions are posible. But unfortuneatly candidate identification trumps reason on both sides of the isle.

The talk here of some Obama supporters why no delegates must ever be awarded and to think otherwise betrays a callous disregard of democracy that the Clinton supporters would all see easily if they all weren't such lying self delusional candidate hacks, shows as much cognitive dissonance as they accuse the other side of.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 29, 2008 at 05:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

Ah, sorry for the troll rate.  I didn't read that last sentence carefully enough the first time.  I mojoed as penance.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:27:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

No offense taken, My comment was badly written and the chaotic structure invited misunderstanding. I'm just glad a second read cleared it up.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

I suspect that most Obama supporters are generally fine with a compromise on Michigan and Florida, because ultimately the delegate #'s from there won't make a difference.

What I for one have a problem with is the hyperbolic comparison of this situation to elections in Zimbabwe or the Civil Rights movement or ending slavery.

This is all about getting as many delegates as possible out of both states.  The "fair" proposal that Clinton get 75% of the Michigan delegates makes it plain that this isn't about the will of the people or any such grand proclamations.


by bottl4 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:55:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

I partly agree.

The Clinton Campaign's pushing of this subject is oppertunistic and motivated by self interest, not because of any deep specific commitment to voting rights. And their hyperbolic framing of this issue is in scrill contrast of their behaviour.

But I think most the most vocal Obama supporters on the net really seem to have written any compromise off. I'm the only Obama supporter (and a poor, almost indifferent one at that) that I know of that strongly backs the states view (but with a penalty and a fair share of delegates for Obama in MI, of course) and vocally calls for a solution that favors seating.

While I'm sure I'm not the only non Clinton supporter who disagrees with the more vocal group, I haven't seen that many actively argue against their opinion that not counting them is the only solution worth considering.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

I actually agree with you that they should not lose all their delegates.  I have said a few times a while back that they should be seated at 1/2 or even 2/3 their regular number of delegates.  Florida could be seated as is, since there was not any real advantage for anyone there.  The argument about some overlapping national ads and fundraisers is not very important to what actually happened there.  And if it was revoted it would be pretty similar today.  Michigan is a totally different animal.  It should be seated at 1/2, with Obama getting AT LEAST all of the uncommitteds.  I think he should get more, but I can settle for that.

I've been pushed toward the side of not seating any sometimes because of Hillary supporters who say things like "All votes must count" and "100% or don't expect my vote."  

My life has become less stressful since I realized that the 10 most virulent Hillary supporters happen to post here, and I don't actually care about them.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Actually I think we're pretty much in agreement.

Personally I'd say 50% for Michigan and 75% for Florida.

Florida was far more a level playing field, (although Obama was a little disadvantaged, 5% or so I'd say) and Their infraction was smaller, and the democratic  backing of the decision more defensible seeing how the 2000 election worked out for them and the budget for the voting machines that was included. Still there needs to be a slap on the wrist at least.

If I remember correctly Michigan already chose the uncommitted delegates with every one of them going to Obama loyalists except six seats going to an union? I'd say that they should keep those seats, Obama won't really need them and I'd like them to have those delegates, I think they earned it, and it makes a good story.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

I agree, though I think Florida still needs to get its delegates cut in half.  I understand the rationale, but giving arbitrary punishments sets a bad precedent.

[Waits for the "Want to talk about arbitrary?  Why weren't the other 4 states punished!?" comments]


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Well, I think the most vocal Obama supporters just get caught up in the argument of why the two primaries were unfair.  Then the "count every vote!" comes up from the other side and everybody's position hardens a little more.

Count me in as an Obama supporter who thinks they should be seated (but with half a vote each).  From a practical standpoint, it's in Obama's best interest to take this issue off the table.

I say seat the Florida delegation as-is with the delegates getting half a vote.  On the Michigan side, I'm fine with either the 69-59 split proposed but the Michigan democrats or with the primary results and Obama gets the uncommitted (and again the delegates getting half a vote).

Lanny Davis' proposal of Clinton getting her delegates and half the uncommitted delegates made me laugh out loud (which wasn't great cause I was at work and had to try to explain the ins and outs of the Michigan primary ... and ultimately gave up).

Getting the Florida/Michigan issue wrapped up with some kind of penalty to prevent this from happening again is necessary at this point.  


by bottl4 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:30:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

These peopel "Fucked" themselves. They chose not to vote.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 2)

What millions of people who didn't vote in sanctioned primaries? Oh, I see- you're talking about caucuses, I assume, specifically the ones Senator Clinton performed poorly in.

I know, her ground game sucks- she got schooled when she had no excuse, having been through the process before in 1992 and 1996 personally with Bill. But no rules were broken, and it's a pretty interesting time to start complaining about causes and the way we nominate candidates, because even if you are honestly concerned, there's no way to discern if you truly feel that way, or are simply championing righteous indignation because your candidate is losing.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:28:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

Hey, if you have evidence that any of those voters in other states were told by the DNC that their votes wouldn't count, I'm right there with you.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Why don't we also count the votes in primaries held in Washington, Idaho, and Nebraska, and award additional delegates based on the primary results?  Who cares that those primaries didn't count, since those states held caucuses.  

As you say, we must count all the votes.  So, what if those states will get double the amount of delegates.  As you say, we have to count ALL the votes.  If WA primary voters don't have their votes counted, they are being disenfranchised.  Their votes must count, because they voted, and all votes must count.  


by ProfessorReo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (1.00 / 3)

BINGO!!!! you hit the nail right on the head! Any one who participated in Texas the caucuses will agree 100% - these were completely illegitimate and undemocratic - if he wins, he will be an illegitimate nominee!


by suzieg on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:05:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

Yeah, too bad Bill benefitted from the Texas Two Step, in fact it was his campaign who implemented the idea...If you wanna blame anybody for Texas' primary/caucus start with Bill.


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:49:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

I participated in the Texas caucus. I do not agree 100%.  Please do not speak for me.  I went in to vote for Clinton and cast my caucus vote for Obama after compelling and informative discussions.  I know there were others involved in my caucus that share the same views as me.  So, once again, not 100%.  Please use facts and not opinions.


by temptxan on Thu May 29, 2008 at 06:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

bullshit (none / 0)

as a texas caucus-goer i take serious offense to you attempting to speak on my behalf.  our precinct caucus was fantastic - one of the most trouble free in our metro area.  every single person was included and treated with respect.  how presumptuous of you to assume otherwise.


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (2.00 / 1)

No, Hillary's not responsible so much as is Harold Ickes, and his ilk, who voted to strip Florida of their delegates once they decided to break the rules.

Wait, now who does Ickes work for again?


by doschi on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why are you muddying the waters (2.00 / 10)

with facts and logic and stuff.  

Can't you see Hillary is trying to campaign?  Damn.  

By the way, as a citizen of one of the caucus states that don't count in her 'popular vote' thingy, I'm irrelevant too.  She didn't even have to trick me out of participating.  I canvassed my neighborhood and worked for months and all she had to do was not count my state because, we don't count or something.  And now I've been invited to go help her people protest the DNC because they want every vote counted.

These people are starting to give the Bushies a run for their money in terms of trying to kill reason and logic forever.  


by Sun Dog on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:15:00 AM EST

Tell that to the 5 elederly ladies who were with (1.50 / 4)

me and asked me to take them home because they wer4e screamed at by Obama's unruly supporters screaming at them that they were not supportive of Obama because they didn't want to see a black man in the White House and started to push them out the door.

Poor things were so scared that they left before even signing in - I think their votes and others like them who were scared to be in crowds were intimidated to stay home - so your argument is for nil - and cancels itself out. Caucuses are undemocratic, PERIOD!!!


by suzieg on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to the 5 elederly ladies who were (2.00 / 1)

If you say so...NOT!!!


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:50:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to the 5 elederly ladies who were (2.00 / 2)

In what state and what congressional district did this happen in?


by deadinthewater on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Even if all of your statements are imperative, (2.00 / 1)

and you use 15 exclamation points, that in no way makes you right.  Quit being a drive-by commenter and address at least one of the responses to your comments.  

Even if what you say is true, that can in no way be a reflection of the contests at large or the candidate him/herself.  There was documented evidence of voter intimidation in Nevada by Hillary supporters (some of whom were transported from other states for that express purpose). In Indiana people were turned away from voting places for not having proper identification but you won't hear Obama supporters saying he lost those contests because of voter disenfranchisement.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you don't get to decide which contests are valid and which aren't just because you don't like the results.  That's undemocratic when we know the rules from the outset, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(See look how much louder I've exclaimed.  Clearly you've been bested)


by Tenafly Viper on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to the 5 elederly ladies who were (none / 0)

I went to cast my absentee ballot for Obama, and Hillary supporters beat me up at the mailbox!!! It's true!!!! There's absolutely no way for anyone to provide evidence disputing this point, which means that my interpretation of events is exactly what happened! I demand that all of the Virginia delegates for Hillary be invalidated because a sucker punch at the post office is just plain undemocratic.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (1.85 / 7)

I've got friends- and real friends, not Alegre-type "friends" and "family"- in Ludington, Iron Mountain, and Escanaba who all said the same thing. A couple of them voted "Uncommitted" anyway (one was for Edwards, and one for Obama), but they didn't figure it would really mean anything. It's pretty intellectually dishonest, yeah, but they've gotta come up with a way to win however they can, right? So intellectual honesty is out of the question if that's the case.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:15:36 AM EST

Re: Clinton Camp wants to Disenfranchise 2 Million (none / 0)

What to do?

Hillary: Count every Vote!

Obama: Powerbrokers in a DC Hotel room will pick some delegates and say they represent MI and FL.

That's a CHANGE from progressive democracy, all right.


by mdFriendofHillary on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're Wrong... (1.16 / 6)

Hillary WANTED and SUPPORTED and offered to PAY FOR a RE-VOTE in BOTH states....

but alas...

"Mr. Uniter" - the true DIS enfranchiser....

The "Uniter" that kicked off Alice Palmer - encumbent and beloved IL state senator who was in obama's old seat....

Yes, the Party UNITER

well - HE did not want the RE-VOTE to happy....

Like he is with the debates - he's AFRAID he might lose.....


by nikkid on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:32 AM EST

Re: You're Wrong... (2.00 / 2)

It wasn't a revote for all.  She wanted to disenfranchise millions who didn't vote on the first MEANINGLESS ballot.  100% unacceptable.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're Wrong... (2.00 / 1)

Psssst. They don't do facts.


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:19:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're Wrong... (2.00 / 1)

I know, I know.

Truth will out!


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're Wrong... (none / 0)

You're not convinced by bold fonts and ALL CAPS! Shocking!